Providence

Providence is a LARP game using Trent Yacuk's Kingdom Come system. It is a game of Fallen Angels and their struggle to survive against the forces of Heaven and Hell and some things in between.

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    ic vs ooc terms

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    Eliel

    Number of posts : 198
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    ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Eliel on Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 0:54

    This is mainly to Jill but I think it would be useful for everyone to know the answer to this. What game terms are ooc and what are ic?

    I know the techniques names are ooc but that the word "technique" itself is an ic term. In recent conversations I have been avoiding using the word "predomination" because I wasn't sure if it was an actual in game word or just a mechanic and I find it very frustrating not knowing if characters should be using certain terms or not. Could we get a list of words that we are not supposed to be using in character.


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    Eliel

    He who would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself". -Thomas Paine, philosopher and writer (1737-1809)
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 6 Apr 2010 - 21:43

    The only ones I know for sure are the mechanics-specific ones like the names of Techniques, terms like Advantage, Prowess, Dynamic/Reactive Body, the names of your Professions, etc.. Basically anything that can and does appear on your character sheet is considered an OOC term.

    I think "Predomination" sounds ridiculous IC, and would encourage people to come up with a different way of describing what it is ("area of effect", "influence over human minds/souls", etc.). I'd say probably most of the downtime action items are probably OOC terms as well except for those that make sense or are vague like 'hunt', 'investigate', 'protect', etc..
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    Bal

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Bal on Wed 7 Apr 2010 - 0:43

    I have always found it rather silly that the Technique names are not IC. They seem like the types of things characters would naturally develop names for, and that those names would get common enough to be standardized. I mean, sure, your average group of PCs would call it "Fire hands" instead of "Brimstone" and "Lust Mojo" instead of "Enslave", but they would get named.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Wed 7 Apr 2010 - 9:16

    Yeah, we had a long discussion about this two years ago, and Dave came up with a list of really cool IC terms for the Techniques. I don't know where that post has gone, but if you can find it, "spiffify" was the one used for Hallow.
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    Bal

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Bal on Wed 7 Apr 2010 - 10:59

    Seems silly to have a separate list of terms though, really.

    I guess it is a common complaint though for WoD-like games that designers don't want characters to ICly treat powers like they are easily categorized, quantified, and named...and then make powers that are easily categorized, quantified, and named. Human brains(and thus, presumably Fallen brains) are naturally inclined towards pattern recognition, sorting, categorizing, and naming things, and we actually tend to be pretty good at it, too.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 13:26

    No, no. Dave's list of terms was tongue-in-cheek. It was AWESOME.

    Yes, I think that people are naturally inclined toward pattern recognition, sorting, categorising, and naming things. I just don't think that Fallen from all over the world would have all come up with the *same names* for their Techniques. That's like assuming a red, juicy, fibrous tree fruit would be called "apple" by everyone in the world.
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    Sephrian

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Sephrian on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 13:39

    I understand that 'news travels slowly' throughout Fallen society, but there are many ways that Fallen can share their stories and ideas...I'm sure over time similar concepts would begin to have similar terms assigned to them. This is especially true of those Techniques that have relatively descriptive names. And lets not forget that Fallen all over the world swear to the same clauses of the same Codex...
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 13:42

    I'm sure there may still be places that haven't heard of the Codex.

    But that's beside the point. I just don't think it's "common sense" that Fallen would come up with common names for all 45 Techniques. *MAYBE*, for the Core Techniques.
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    Bal

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Bal on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 14:00

    I do agree it is likely that Fallen wouldn't necessarily originally came with with the same names for all of them - but groups that work together(like a Civitas) probably would standardize vocabulary over time. And keep in mind, of course, that Fallen are universal translators - so there is never going to be a language barrier.

    The thing is... If Fallen don't have names for the Techniques, it seems common sense that they will name them eventually, or otherwise find ways to make clear what they are refering to. You can say it hasn't been done yet, but that just pushes it to being done in play, and in essence says "No other Fallen are as pragmatic as the PCs, cause no one bothered doing this before you."

    Like I said, it feels like a common trend in WoD-like games...describing an IC set-up where any average group of intelligent PCs would come in and change things to be more efficient within the first few hours, and yet not having strong reasoning why that can't happen. It has the effect of making the setting look like it is staffed by simpletons. The Camarilla in Vampire seemed especially bad for that...
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    Corral

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Corral on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 14:03

    The only really accurate way to do this would be to have a big list of possible names, with references to where they are popular, and each character gets to pick out what names *they* have for a given technique based on where they're from, where they've been, and how long they've been in Regina. Then throw all that together and find out how long it takes for all of us to start using common names.

    This isn't worth doing (although it might be a fun and interesting experiment) and I rather suspect that based on the way the game has been going, it would actually take a long time. If Malicia refers to Inner Silence as "disappearing" and Tara refers to it as "reality shifting", they probably both know what the other means and wouldn't correct the other. But there would be a lot of confusion over certain other ones, and you know what, I think maybe Jill's right that rather than cause confusion by using names we know not everyone will know, we would just describe the thing.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 14:29

    Malicia wrote:I think maybe Jill's right

    Music to my ears.
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    Bal

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Bal on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 14:32

    I guess the main thing is I don't see how saying Fallen don't use Technique names adds anything to the game. It is certainly not a big issue or anything, but it just seems unnecessary(and most likely ignored by 9/10ths of players).
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 14:35

    I think it adds a layer of...creativity? Spontaneousness? Decriptivosity?

    It seems much more ...setting-setting to say "I have the power to reduce a man to ashes" rather than "I have Pure Brimstone".
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    Cole

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Cole on Thu 8 Apr 2010 - 19:51

    I like the lack of names because I feel it reduces the willingness of others to talk about techniques of which they should have no knowledge. I understand that people know about the abilities of others but I strongly feel that it should be based on experience and shared stories. If there are common names it seems to imply a common knowledge; worse, with that tends to come a false sense of entitlement to the details of how said techniques work. Unless it is your embodiment there is no reason for you to know the details -- further, with transgressions they can all work differently for each person so you can't know all the details. And really, I don't know about you, but IC I tend to lie about my abilities so that others won't know what I can do. So when I lie and increase or decrease the ability of a technique then the descriptors change such that the commonality diverges and there is less of a grouping of my ability and your ability into one technique with a standardized name.

    I know, I'm crazy. Abbreviated rant all because of the IC/OoC naming issue.

    Mihr

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Mihr on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 20:19

    Considering all the battle planning and coordinating that supposedly goes on (in the background, during downtime) it feels really, really weird that we don't have names for our capabilities.

    I think part of the reason we don't sit down and name them in character is that it would be too disorienting to directly address the really weird fact that there aren't names already.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 20:31

    Here's a non-game example of why the techniques don't have common names.

    Adrienne is a bellydancer. She's an AWESOME bellydancer, by the way, and if you ever get the chance to see her dance, you really should. She's been dancing with the same bellydance group for a few years. They have certain names for the moves they have.

    I am also a bellydancer, but I don't dance with Adrienne's troupe. We have names for our moves, too. They might be essentially the same move, with slight variations, but they more often than not do not have the same name. The names might be *similar*, but, with the exception of core moves, many dance moves don't have the same names.

    And this is not uncommon. Bellydance troupes from all over the world have similar moves (in fact, folk dances from all over the world have similar moves), but why should they be called the same? Even when dancers get together and compare notes, each group usually keeps its own taxonomy or lexicon (Is Taxonomy the right word here?).

    F'rinstance, some dance troupes have a shimmy called "thunder". For other troupes, it's called "earth" or "earthquake" or "back". Sure, they're all a form of shimmy, but they *don't have the same name for the same move*. And this is just in my experience, and I don't even know that many dancers...but I do know that I call moves differently from Adrienne, and she calls moves differently from other dancers I know...etc.. We're all co-ordinating our moves, especially if we get to dance together, but we do so without all knowing the same lexicon.

    This is a really good, solid explanation for why *I* think the techniques are OOC terms rule is a good one.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 20:33

    Oh, also, anything you talk about during downtime, unless you're doing an IC scene, is OOC, so you can use the Technique names all you want in your downtime submissions (but not in the IC scenes).

    Mihr

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Mihr on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:08

    It really seems that for most intents and purposes, a civitas would be a dance troupe. Or at least a civitas where the truce is in full effect and member of all three convictions regularly coordinate and work together against their enemies.

    If someone died the hollow death in Asia someplace and turns up in Regina, sure they're going to have different names for techniques (though it begs questions about the specifics of the previously mentioned universal translator), but it just seems really jarring that a bunch of people who regularly discuss the use of their techniques haven't at least mostly agreed on names for them.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:13

    Why on earth would people "regularly discuss the use of their techniques"?

    Mihr

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Mihr on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:18

    Because coordinated use of said techniques is what's keeping us alive.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:22

    Really?
    In what way?
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    Bal

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Bal on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:23

    I think it might be different if the Fallen weren't at War(first with each other, then with the Host and Horde), because then Techniques might mostly be private use. But obviously Techniques are very private, and need to be coordinated. After all, you ICly promise them to your Kings. One would think, given a fallen new to the City has to swear their skills, Techniques and lives to the Kings, a common question would be "So just what are those skills and techniques?" Indeed, I have found that IC, in actual play, it often is a common question.

    As for the "In What way?", the question "Does anyone have any Techniques that could help us here?" is very common, I've found. If someone says "Yes, I do!", the immediate next question is going to be "What are they?"

    Speaking of software developers, I go back to work now. Smile


    Last edited by Bal on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:24; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Answering Jill's question)
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:25

    I always read the Affirmation as small-tee 'techniques'. Huh.
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    Bal

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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by Bal on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:32

    cenobyte wrote:I always read the Affirmation as small-tee 'techniques'. Huh.

    I am pretty sure it is supposed to be read as "Techniques - you know, those supernatural powers we have? We have three in common, and then each Embodiment has three they specialize in?" At least, that is how it has been read in most games I've participated in. If that ISN'T what is meant, Trent really should have picked a better phrasing.
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    cenobyte
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    Re: ic vs ooc terms

    Post by cenobyte on Tue 15 Jun 2010 - 21:41

    Well, I don't know if he meant big-tee or small-tee. That's just how I always heard it in my head, you know?

    Either way, the term "Techniques" isn't OOC; just the names. Kind of like "shimmy" is universal, but there's not a lot of consensus on what different kinds of shimmies might be called.

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